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Same problem again :-(

Last post 06-12-2009 1:31 AM by Chamutal. 15 replies.
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  • 04-22-2009 3:35 PM

    Same problem again :-(

    I feel so upset. This is only the third period I've had since my last baby was born 22 months ago. I had two bleeds in between the proper mensturation as well. Now again the same problem that caused my last miscarriage 4 years ago is back. Only 7 post ovulation days before progesterone runs out!! I have been on Vitex and no good.

    I feel really upset. My husband says I should concentrate on the fact that my body gave us three beautiful children. Of course I know that. But I am disheartened when I think that i will have to try again for months and months to have another healthy pregnancy.

    Our last child took 18 months again to conceive with another miscarriage in the middle. Just like the ones before. I was so upset this morning when I saw my temp low again!!!

    Now I feel vitex is not right for me at the moment, though I might give it one more cycle. i thought to take soy isoflavones to bring on ovulation (I know it works a bit like clomid so won't take for more than 5 days) and to support the luteal phase with vitamin B6.

    Any thoughts on that? We are not ttc before August at the earliest (my husband wants to wait to November but that's too long for me, especially if it's going to take a long time again)....

    I know I can't take vitex and isoflavones together (counteract each other) but can I take B6 with vitex? And should I take B6 for the whole cycle or only post ov? And another thing is about progesterone cream. Good idea? I think I will have to go to acupuncture as well.

    So I just wanted to share. Not good moment. feel dissappointed with my body. Angry. I hate feeling like this. I value being positive and not moaning. But I feel like moaning and I know I am lucky to have three children.

    Good note?

    Back to doula work. On call again after two years on baby duty at home. Good to be back. lady due in three weeks. Third home birth planned, and I love those. Looking forward to it. love being on call (another little insanty of mine).

    Ok I am going to bed. feel better just for talking about it. Thanks.

     

    Chamutal

    Doula, Fertility Awareness teacher
    Mother of three home birthed, homeschooled children.
  • 04-22-2009 5:20 PM In reply to

    • RobsGirl
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 02-04-2009
    • Mid-Hudson Valley, NY
    • Posts 364

    Re: Same problem again :-(

    Oh Chamutal!!  I am so totally in a similar position right now.  I wrote a long post the other day and then didn't post it about the same type of thing.  I have lots of ideas that I want to share, but it will have to wait til later (the children need to get to bed).  Just wanted to let you know that you have someone here who can sympathize, and hopefully encourage.

    RobsGirl, 31
    Wife of one fabulous guy (34)
    Mommy of 3 awesome boys, ages 11, 8, and 4, and a precious 2 year old daughter.


  • 04-22-2009 5:24 PM In reply to

    Re: Same problem again :-(

    Oh darlin....

    I'm sorry!

     

    Have you considered taking flaxseed?

     

    Do you have acess to a acupucturist?

     

    Mary

  • 04-22-2009 8:09 PM In reply to

    • RobsGirl
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 02-04-2009
    • Mid-Hudson Valley, NY
    • Posts 364

    Re: Same problem again :-(

    I'm back.  All my things are taken care of and I have a minute to share.

    >I feel so upset. This is only the third period I've had since my last baby was born 22 months ago. I had two bleeds in between the proper mensturation as well. Now again the same problem that caused my last miscarriage 4 years ago is back. Only 7 post ovulation days before progesterone runs out!! I have been on Vitex and no good.<

    I know how you're feeling.  Its so easy to project old feelings and experiences on the future.  Its like, "OH nooooo, here we go again!!"  I'm in a similar position with a 13 day luteal phase but the last 5-7 are spotting.  I've been terribly discouraged, not by the fact that I haven't conceived, but that my luteal phase is so poor.  Thoughts: How can I hold a baby if I can't hold onto my uterine lining?  I somehow conceived my last one despite this, but I feel that was extrordinary, not something to be expected.  And its particularly frustrating when you've been doing something to help, and then it doesn't help at all.  Are you thinking that the short luteal phase could be related to breastfeeding (how much are you nursing?) or is your intuition telling you that it is not related to that?

    >I feel really upset. My husband says I should concentrate onthe fact that my body gave us three beautiful children. Of course I know that. But I am disheartened when I think that i will have to try again for months and months to have another healthy pregnancy.<

    Husbands can be very objective and removed, which is great when you need a balancing perspective.  But if they could just understand the uncertainties swirling about in our heads, they'd buy us chocolate and give us a hug. :-)  I totally understand.  I really really would like to have a fourth child, and I'd love to just get on with it rather than have to go through the whole process that can be so discouraging and sad.

    >Our last child took 18 months again to conceive with another miscarriage in the middle. Just like the ones before. I was so upset this morning when I saw my temp low again!!!<

    Yes.  We tried about 3 years for our little boy and lost two in there.  I very much want to avoid going down a road like that again.

    >Now I feel vitex is not right for me at the moment, though I might give it one more cycle. i thought to take soy isoflavones to bring on ovulation (I know it works a bit like clomid so won't take for more than 5 days) and to support the luteal phase with vitamin B6.<

    It could very well be that Vitex is not right for you at the moment.  Vitex has a hot quality to it (per a book on traditional chinese medicine for infertility) and can make matters worse for women who have heat signs already (shortened cycle, quick heartrate, feeling hot, night sweating, thirst for cold things, red acne especially before menstruation, vaginal irritation).  In that case, the soy may be a better choice as it is estrogenic (estrogen is a cooling hormone).  Mary's suggestion about the flax is good too, as flax has some phytoestrogens as well.

    >Any thoughts on that? We are not ttc before August at the earliest (my husband wants to wait to November but that's too long for me, especially if it's going to take a long time again)....<

    Well, then the best thing is to take the pressure off yourself for now, since you're not in a rush, possibly take the soy and B6 pre ov, and maybe (if you think its okay for you to warm up your luteal phase) vitex and B6 post ov (or progesterone cream and B6).  Also, getting the acupuncture prior to trying would be a great idea to get your body functioning more optimally, and then continue it if you can after you officially start trying.

    >I know I can't take vitex and isoflavones together (counteract each other) but can I take B6 with vitex? And should I take B6 for the whole cycle or only post ov? And another thing is about progesterone cream. Good idea? I think I will have to go to acupuncture as well.<

    See above.  I think b6 and vitex are fine to take together, and I would take it (b6) all cycle if possible.  I had great success this month with the cream (I was spotting for quite a few days, but it was intermittent, and when it was present, it was very very light).  And then I had the huge hormonal drop feeling at day 12 past ov.  Acupuncture is a great idea.  Also taking time to relax your mind and body each day can be so helpful (yoga, deep breathing, meditating, praying).  I'm reading a book right now about the mind-body connection to women's health.  Our hearts and minds are so connected to our reproductive system, its amazing.

    >So I just wanted to share. Not good moment. feel dissappointed with my body. Angry. I hate feeling like this. I value being positive and not moaning. But I feel like moaning and I know I am lucky to have three children.<

    I know.  I just came out of a phase like this.  I felt confused, tossed about, angry with my body for being so messed up.  AND I hated the feelings too because I'm just like you...I'd much rather be happy, carefree, and just not worry about it...it will happen how and when it will happen.  My life has been so blessed these last two years with personal growth and more happiness than I've ever had before.  And now the ttc "evil" is creeping back again.  BUT, I really really want to conquer this.  I want to show myself that I can be happy in this circumstance as well. 

    Just don't forget about all the things your body has done beautifully.  I'm sure it only needs a little nudge with a thumb (so to speak) to get it on track in this other way.

    >Good note?

    Back to doula work. On call again after two years on baby duty at home. Good to be back. lady due in three weeks. Third home birth planned, and I love those. Looking forward to it. love being on call (another little insanty of mine).<

    Awesome!  Very exciting and exhilerating, I'm sure.  I'm sure the births will all be a blessing to you, and mostly to the new mommies.

     

    >Ok I am going to bed. feel better just for talking about it. Thanks.<

    Thanks so much for sharing.  I needed an opportunity to get my thoughts out too (I wrote a long post the other day and then decided not to post it...didn't want to sound like I was whining).

    BTW, have you ever contemplated why having trouble conceiving is such a difficult issue and why so many emotions are involved?  Is it because we want to be in control and we feel anxious when we realize the ability to have a baby is really not in our hands?  Is it because we're vulnerable when our body isn't working properly (so why don't I feel that way when I have a bout of indigestion or a weekly headache?)?  Why  is there so much intense emotion surrounding TTC?  You see it all over the internet.  Companies are capitalizing on the phenomenon every day?  Its very curious to me and I'm enjoying thinking about that.  Any ideas anyone?

    Now I'm off to bed.

    RobsGirl, 31
    Wife of one fabulous guy (34)
    Mommy of 3 awesome boys, ages 11, 8, and 4, and a precious 2 year old daughter.


  • 04-23-2009 5:24 AM In reply to

    Re: Same problem again :-(

     I'm a midwife for a Mennonite community and often get questions like yours about infertility and preventing miscarriage.  I've had a lot of luck with ladies taking progesterone to conceive and to prevent miscarriage.  I usually suggest progesterone cream starting the day after ovulation until the day you start bleeding.  This helps with conception and preventing early miscarriage.  Many who have had more than 1 miscarriage are willing (actually request) prescription progesterone (prometrium).  My favorite story is the woman who had 7 miscarriages, no pregnancies, was 33 years old.  We followed the above prescription.  I, in passing, asked 2 OB's what they thought.  They laughed, saying the research proved this didn't work (this was 6 years ago).  I had the last laugh, because that pregnancy ended in a healthy baby.  I highly suggest at least trying progesterone for your problems.    Joyce    p.s  Just a year or so ago a patient told me she was prescribed progesterone to prevent a miscarriage by an OB.  I suppose you can guess which OB that was!  (not implicating that I made a difference--probably just because the research now shows the benefit of progesterone.)

  • 04-23-2009 5:45 AM In reply to

    • RobsGirl
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 02-04-2009
    • Mid-Hudson Valley, NY
    • Posts 364

    Re: Same problem again :-(

    That's funny that the OB turned around and started prescribing the progesterone. 

    I've used it too.  It helped me carry 3 of my pregnancies full term.  I'm very interested in the prometrium for next time.  It's not only used orally (I hear most of it gets metabolized on its way through the liver this route).  It can be used vaginally as well (even though that's off label) and I'd rather be using a little pill in there twice a day than a huge suppository two or three times a day (the cervical irritation is terrible).  I'm going to look into that. 

    Thanks!

    RobsGirl, 31
    Wife of one fabulous guy (34)
    Mommy of 3 awesome boys, ages 11, 8, and 4, and a precious 2 year old daughter.


  • 04-23-2009 2:56 PM In reply to

    Re: Same problem again :-(

    Thanks ladies!

    I feel a bit better and before I go into a massive sharing of what my thoughts today, I want to ask about the progesterone. Is it better to have this type and not a cream? Is it important which cream is used? Do I have to have a prscription? I DON"T see a gyn/ob ever!!! But I do have a good ob friend in Israel who will perscribe for me if I need to.

    Robsgirl. I know we are in the same boat on this one and I was interested and felt very supported reading your reply. i felt horrible for most of the day today and probably taught my kids a bit about how stressed a mother is sometimes... i suppose that's also something to learn.

    your question about the issue of ttc and how it's got so big and loaded, went with me today. My mother and I had a big chat about it on the phone (she is in Israel).

    I believe that for me personally the meaning of not becoming pregnant easily is so deep inside my soul. so far out into my distant past personally but also within my extended family, my culture and of course going back to biblical events.

    As a child the story of Sarah, who was so deeply accepting of her infertility, laughing at God's angles who said she would have a child , affectd me so deeply. Then rachel of course for whom infertility also played a part in her sibling issue (as it does for me) and Hanna who pleaded for a child only to give it to God... These affected my soul, I feel it strongly. as if either by the fact that they were to BECOME relevant for me as an adult or perhaps by a way of a self fulfilling prophecy they somehow rang so true.

    Fairy tales, also, with those sentences I can never forget "the queen had everything, but she was always sad because she didn't have what she wanted most of all" were soul rattling for me.

    It then goes nearer, to the Israeli poet Rachel, who died of tuberculosis without ever having a child... Much of her beautiful feminine work is tinted with the sense of longing, of loss, despite being an excellent and recognized artist.

    And it connects firmly to my own losses. my partial sight, my always having to complete an unseen picture with what i sense is there... My mother having to be considered some kind of an hysterical mother who desperately tries to explain to teachers and other members of our small village community that i cannot see, that I need support, and they all treat her as if by saying so she is cursing me and they keep on saying "but Chamutal copes so well".

    so being in a place where my body "fails" me or rather forces me into a particular process through hinderence is a lifelong experience. it's tiring. but having a disability is something that for me put "living normally" as some kind of goal. Ongoing goal, because the challange never ends.

    This is felt for me very much in my relationship with my elder sister, as so often I feel so seriously juged by her. and perhaps she is the first person with whom I have had to never give myself any "discounts".

    But I want to be in a place where being not ok is OK!! And to allow myself to feel that this really is hard, and to feel angry and for it to be ok.

    So this is how it's going to have to be for us. i always push for a baby (My husband thought he wouldn't have children, then he thought one child was great, then thought two was perfect, then thinks three is wonderful - and he knows we will have more) so I push for a baby, he resists untill there sems to be a problen and then he understands how much he wants to have another baby. And then we both work together in perfect unison to do it.

    That is ok. It's also a way. And if this is what it's going to be like, so be it.

    I know I will manage to have another pregnancy. I know it. I don't doubt it because my faith in God is COMPLETE!

    but at the moment I could just wish for an easier path. Funny really.

    I don't really choose the easy path in anything, it has just occured to me!! LOL!!

    We always say one births the way they live... perhaps one conceives the way they live too... LOL

    One more thought about vitex and soy. I conceived twins on vitex (Mica had an idientical twin who passed away 11 weeks gestation)

    Is it true that soy ups the chance of fraternal twins? And wouldn't that be a problem? (Not that I would mind having twins of course).

    Does anyone know the chances of that on soy?

    Chamutal

    Doula, Fertility Awareness teacher
    Mother of three home birthed, homeschooled children.
  • 04-23-2009 8:07 PM In reply to

    • RobsGirl
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 02-04-2009
    • Mid-Hudson Valley, NY
    • Posts 364

    Re: Same problem again :-(

    Hi Chamutal,

    I don't know anything about the soy and chances of twins, but let me know if you find out.  I'm also not sure of how it works in England with the progesterone.  But here, you can get progesterone cream over the counter, but in low concentrations.  You need a prescription and a pharmacist who can "compound" a higher dose of cream for you if you want something better.  My concentration (from the pharmacy) is 100mg per ml of cream, and I typically use about 50 mg twice a day in my luteal phase (half an ml).  Usually, the over the counter creams are about 20 mg per ml.  The vaginal route seems preferred in the medical world because it becomes directly available to the uterine receptors and doesn't enter the blood stream as readily, causing fewer side effects.  I've tried both, and for luteal phase support, I definately prefer the cream for its convenience and lack of side effects.  I had more drowsiness and spotting with vaginal use.  Maybe it was more effective at getting to the uterus, but I find the cream much more convenient, while still effective.  I'm really interested in the little progesterone gelcaps though (prometrium), especially for after a positive pregnancy test.  I always bite the bullet and do the vaginal route when pregnant for the first trimester.  Another thing that seems to be up and coming for luteal support is hcg injections.  I was offered it last time, either the progesterone or the hcg, and I chose the progesterone.

    Your thoughts on TTC are resonating with me.  The biblical stories have always struck a chord with me too.  I'd never thought about how Sarah laughed because she so deeply accepted her infertility.  Hmm, that's intriguing.  We gave our son the middle name, Samuel, after Hannah's son, because of the way I pleaded with God for another child much as Hannah did.  And where it says in Proverbs 13:12  "Hope defferred makes the heart sick, but desire fulfilled is the tree of life," that's so very true.  What insight Solomon had into the human heart.

    I really do think that the longings for a baby are so much a part of our identity as women.  We were created with a womb.  What does the word woman come from "womb man". What's a womb for?  Carrying a baby.  So I think difficulty ttc is a very big assault on a woman's identity in many ways.  I think cultural and religious aspects can add another depth and dimension to it, but it still seems so universal.  I mean, I've never studied anthropology, but it seems to me to be quite a widespread issue over many cultures and times.  I think for myself, I am a thinker, a planner, a doer.  So when I can't think, plan and do my way to a pregnancy, I get a little out of sorts.  Its a control issue.  I have to consciously, on a regular basis let go, and detatch myself from any results my thinking, planning, and doing may or may not have.  It comes down to trust, like you said, complete faith.  We provide the opportunity, we try our best to have prepared a healthy environment for conception, but the end is in the hand of someone greater than myself.  And that can be something really scary and liberating all at the same time.

    I have no idea what its like to have living normally be a goal in life rather than a daily reality taken for granted.  Takes a lot of strength to meet your challenges every day.  I had no idea you had a vision problem.

    I hope you know that it IS okay to not be okay.  I hope no one is telling you that you should be entirely happy and grateful and deny any hardship in a difficult circumstance.  I hope that you have at least some people that you can be "a mess" around, and not have to put up a good face just for show.  I think we're called to be thankful IN all circumstances (that is that we should find something to be thankful for in the midst of our circumstances be it merely a nice hot shower, or a warm cup of tea, or a hug from a child).  But that doesn't mean we have to be thankful FOR all circumstances.  I mean, lets get real here.  Lots of things really suck (American slang for when something is objectionable...do people say that there too?).  I think to deny that something is hard when it really is, is untruthful, and I wouldn't recommend it. 

    Hmmmm very interesting.  I don't choose the easy path either.  Many times I'd like to, but I don't in the end.  My husband also always says somewhat jokingly that he "prefers the strenuous life", so we're doubly endowed there.  We tease him about that phrase.  :-)

    Anyway, I've got to look into the soy thing now.

    RobsGirl, 31
    Wife of one fabulous guy (34)
    Mommy of 3 awesome boys, ages 11, 8, and 4, and a precious 2 year old daughter.


    Filed under: ,
  • 04-24-2009 12:01 AM In reply to

    Re: Same problem again :-(

    Thank you Sarah.

    I know what you mean about the thankfulness. I do think that as I was growing up, there was a notion in our family to be thankful fo everthying and not to be thankful about something positive wuthin a negative situation... anyway Irealise this is ot now... but the ttc thing does bring up A LOT.

    Yesterday I spoke to my sister. She lives in Boston MA. She is the one who is considered most "negative" and pessimistic in our family and she can be very judgemental.

    She has an ability to see very deeply into a situation and sometimes it makes things quite hard. For her, also... Anyway she has one child and she doesn't plan to have any more. I think she thinks 3 is a bit much.

    I must say, we are quite close and have done a lot to deal with our sibling issues over the years.

    I told her that I was upset about my period and she said I should cut myself some slack as I am still breastfeeding... And I could hear in her words this thought in her head, that surely I wouldn't want yet ANOTHER child?? She didn't actually say it like this, but she made a comment about how this problem is acting as contraception for me and that's a good thing. I couldn't actually bring myself to tell her that I want to start ttc...

     

    But of course breastfeeding could be a reason, but as Mica is still so young, it's not going to change soon. I have been feeding a lot as my daughter has relactated herself when she was ill with measles. THank God as I think it saved her life...

    And the whole thing is that I wanted a smaller gap this time. Always fell pregnant breastfeeding but never managed to hold on to a pregnancy before my kids were 3 and a half or 4 years old. It maight, again be just how I make 'em. I just wnted it differently, and I yet again have to practice letting go :-)

     

    Chamutal

    Doula, Fertility Awareness teacher
    Mother of three home birthed, homeschooled children.
  • 05-09-2009 10:35 AM In reply to

    • RobsGirl
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 02-04-2009
    • Mid-Hudson Valley, NY
    • Posts 364

    Re: Same problem again :-(

    Argh, I started spotting at 4 dpo already (maybe has something to do with lots of strenuous work in the garden??).  I'm 6dpo, crampy, and backachy...not feeling too great.  I have a script for a progesterone blood test so I guess I'll go on Monday for that (8 dpo).

    RobsGirl, 31
    Wife of one fabulous guy (34)
    Mommy of 3 awesome boys, ages 11, 8, and 4, and a precious 2 year old daughter.


  • 05-10-2009 7:16 AM In reply to

    • Adrienne
    • Top 50 Contributor
    • Joined on 02-12-2009
    • South Carolina
    • Posts 35

    Re: Same problem again :-(

    I learned in herb school that, rather than just "throwing Vitex" at irregular cycles, sometimes 4-6 months of daily Magnesium, B-complex, and Zinc can re-set the endocrine system.  Nobody has an herb (or isoflavone) deficiency, but many of us have nutrient deficiencies. 

    I also suggest weighing the pros & cons of high doses of unfermented soy extract very carefully.  I am sure you will come across both points of view in your research.

    This experience will truly inform your fertility teachings, yes?

  • 05-26-2009 4:56 AM In reply to

    • RobsGirl
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 02-04-2009
    • Mid-Hudson Valley, NY
    • Posts 364

    Re: Same problem again :-(

    That's good advice about the magnesium, B-complex and zinc. 

    I think the rationale behind the soy isoflavones in high doses for 3 to 5 days per month is that its a sort of a estrogen binder like clomid and it casues your body to produce more estrogen and mature more eggs, or larger eggs.  I personally felt that a few days wouldn't be a problem, though normally I avoid soy altogether (familiar with the research and a hearty Nourishing Traditions fan!!).  I actually did try it this past month, and guess what?  I'm pregnant.  So Chamutal, if you're reading this, I did try it and I don't know if it works, but I am indeed pregnant in the same cycle.  I was late in starting the soy.  I think I used it from day 7 or 8 through day 11 and ovulated on day 13.  All that early spotting I was so discouraged about this month must have been implantation.  It has since stopped and I'm using the prometrium 200 mg gelcaps vaginally twice a day.  The irritation factor (as opposed to the huge suppositories) is much less for me at least.  Haven't seen a midwife yet, but will in a couple of weeks probably.  I'm just past 5 weeks now.

    RobsGirl, 31
    Wife of one fabulous guy (34)
    Mommy of 3 awesome boys, ages 11, 8, and 4, and a precious 2 year old daughter.


  • 05-26-2009 5:51 AM In reply to

    Re: Same problem again :-(

    YAY on your news and thanks for the great info! Big Smile

     

    Mary

  • 06-11-2009 5:52 AM In reply to

    Re: Same problem again :-(

    Sarah! I have only now seen your post! Is the pregnancy going well?

    OOOH I want to congratulate you and i hope this one is a stayer!!!!

    I have stopped Vitex now and started the supplements and the result was only one extra day post ov last month, which brought me to a grand total of 8 post ov days. Could be JUST enough to implant.

     

    This month I took the soy for five days, day three through to seven. I am on day ten today. Temp low. Cevix low (hasn't been doing anything for the last few months) had three dry days in a row (Not been dry for months) and today getting siticky so I feel a process is in motion.

     

    Was going to wait to August to start trying to concieve but last night I felt this was not right. I can't ask God for a child and say not yet.

    So Here We GO.

    Oh Sarah, I do hope your pregnancy is holding.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Chamutal

    Doula, Fertility Awareness teacher
    Mother of three home birthed, homeschooled children.
  • 06-11-2009 8:39 AM In reply to

    • RobsGirl
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 02-04-2009
    • Mid-Hudson Valley, NY
    • Posts 364

    Re: Same problem again :-(

    Chamutal!!  Thanks so much for the well wishes. 

    Yay for you and  your hubby on going for it!!!

    RobsGirl, 31
    Wife of one fabulous guy (34)
    Mommy of 3 awesome boys, ages 11, 8, and 4, and a precious 2 year old daughter.


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